(Toots at the debacle is debating the effectiveness of water immersion for pain relief in birth.)
Natural birth meant less pain overall.
The epi for my first birth stopped labor. It tooks hours for me to convince them to turn it off, so I could get going again. 25 hours of hell. I hurt worse than a traffic accident after, and my mothering ability was compromised due to loss of confidence in my natural ability.
For the next two, I went natural. I was up and around right away, empowered to care for my new baby. Overall the pain was much less. The recovery was faster.
The second was in the inhospitalbe, and since I was forced onto my back, I tore.
The third was in the water. Only a tiny tear, which didn't need repair. For the third, I didn't even get any pain meds for recovery. It forced me to rest, as my body required.
Toots, you say water birth is dangerous, and then say we should study its effectiveness. I'm confused.
Birth should empower a mom, not cause trauma due to calloused care.
Sue
(the ban seems to have expired.)
Thursday, August 17, 2006
Wednesday, August 09, 2006
Ranting about Banning
( a reply I posted in my moomy group to questions about why I got banned. )
No explanation, no reply to my email asking for it. I posted my goodbye from another computer, and she deleted the goodbye, and banned that computer too.
Since some of my posts are still there, I put a goodbye on my blog.
You've seen my style, I really try to be respectful here. There I was getting a little more snarky. Her Name is Dr. Amy Tutuer, MD, but I started calling her toots. Toots the I know better than you horn, and bangs the dead baby drum. Just a little humour, no cursing. She maintains, with no evidence to prove it, that homebirth makes more dead babies, but women choose it for 'the experience'. There's even a British Doctor who points to overwhelming evidence in England on the safety of homebirth. They can have a homebirth even on public assistance. 80% of women only see midwives. There is seemless transfer of care with no acrimony like transfers are treated here.
As is typical, she was spouting her personal feelings, and claiming that science, studies and research supported her. We have been having fun poking huge holes in every argument.
Today's complaint is "why do DEMs charge so much" DEM is direct entry midwife, like Brigett who attended the birth of my son Nicholas. She thinks $2500 is too much for the entire cost of prenatal, labor, and post natal services, including testing. In my mind it's not enough to keep them in business. Most DEMs barely scrape by, and some get donations from grateful previous clients.
So tempted to send the hordes of angry internet women from mothering.com after her. They have a forum which supported me through the trials at Northridge when they asked me to refill my bottle with 'free safer formula'.
Does everyone know the differences between DEM, CPM, CNM and sOBs (surgical OBstetricians)? Maybe she was tired of my sOB acronym, but I did spell it out. CNM and OBs view pregnancy as a disease, and rescue the fetus. DEMs and CPMs view birth as normal, and only send you to OBs when things out of the range of normal happen. (beware of Sue's sweeping generalization, there are many good and bad exceptions to my general rule.)
I wouldn't mind so much if she hadn't put it at the top of the page that both sides are welcome. She's banned a few others that I know of. She also made a big deal that she'd stop selectively censoring, and it seems to be happening again. She should have at least left my goodbye up. People will be wondering if I'm okay, I was a regular there, and people were noticing my point of view.
Thanks for listening. Still trying to work through my feelings on this. It makes me angry to see her saying that she won't do any backup care for midwives because they are all unprofessional, and dangerous. That's the trouble with homebirth around here, hostile hospital will start over on arrival, instead of picking up from the midwives direction. many midwives become doulas as they pass through the hospital doors. In Michigan we have no licensing for DEMs, they are not illegal like some states, but their not protected by a license like in others. A woman should be able to choose anything from an elective C to an unassisted homebirth, without worrying about CPS (child protective services) punishing you for child abuse, or a hospital letting the baby die while lecturing you on the evils of birthing, instead of providing the care the midwife decided you needed there.
Oh, and to answer your questions T, I can view the site, but not post. No, she doesn't moderate, only deletes parts that don't support her point of view, after posting. She gave me no warning that I was out of line. I think she was just tired of being called toots, it probably happens to her in real life. (her last name is Tutuer -> toots)
Thanks for listening, I feel better now.
No explanation, no reply to my email asking for it. I posted my goodbye from another computer, and she deleted the goodbye, and banned that computer too.
Since some of my posts are still there, I put a goodbye on my blog.
You've seen my style, I really try to be respectful here. There I was getting a little more snarky. Her Name is Dr. Amy Tutuer, MD, but I started calling her toots. Toots the I know better than you horn, and bangs the dead baby drum. Just a little humour, no cursing. She maintains, with no evidence to prove it, that homebirth makes more dead babies, but women choose it for 'the experience'. There's even a British Doctor who points to overwhelming evidence in England on the safety of homebirth. They can have a homebirth even on public assistance. 80% of women only see midwives. There is seemless transfer of care with no acrimony like transfers are treated here.
As is typical, she was spouting her personal feelings, and claiming that science, studies and research supported her. We have been having fun poking huge holes in every argument.
Today's complaint is "why do DEMs charge so much" DEM is direct entry midwife, like Brigett who attended the birth of my son Nicholas. She thinks $2500 is too much for the entire cost of prenatal, labor, and post natal services, including testing. In my mind it's not enough to keep them in business. Most DEMs barely scrape by, and some get donations from grateful previous clients.
So tempted to send the hordes of angry internet women from mothering.com after her. They have a forum which supported me through the trials at Northridge when they asked me to refill my bottle with 'free safer formula'.
Does everyone know the differences between DEM, CPM, CNM and sOBs (surgical OBstetricians)? Maybe she was tired of my sOB acronym, but I did spell it out. CNM and OBs view pregnancy as a disease, and rescue the fetus. DEMs and CPMs view birth as normal, and only send you to OBs when things out of the range of normal happen. (beware of Sue's sweeping generalization, there are many good and bad exceptions to my general rule.)
I wouldn't mind so much if she hadn't put it at the top of the page that both sides are welcome. She's banned a few others that I know of. She also made a big deal that she'd stop selectively censoring, and it seems to be happening again. She should have at least left my goodbye up. People will be wondering if I'm okay, I was a regular there, and people were noticing my point of view.
Thanks for listening. Still trying to work through my feelings on this. It makes me angry to see her saying that she won't do any backup care for midwives because they are all unprofessional, and dangerous. That's the trouble with homebirth around here, hostile hospital will start over on arrival, instead of picking up from the midwives direction. many midwives become doulas as they pass through the hospital doors. In Michigan we have no licensing for DEMs, they are not illegal like some states, but their not protected by a license like in others. A woman should be able to choose anything from an elective C to an unassisted homebirth, without worrying about CPS (child protective services) punishing you for child abuse, or a hospital letting the baby die while lecturing you on the evils of birthing, instead of providing the care the midwife decided you needed there.
Oh, and to answer your questions T, I can view the site, but not post. No, she doesn't moderate, only deletes parts that don't support her point of view, after posting. She gave me no warning that I was out of line. I think she was just tired of being called toots, it probably happens to her in real life. (her last name is Tutuer -> toots)
Thanks for listening, I feel better now.
Tuesday, August 08, 2006
I got banned
After many posts, and much time invested in a debate I was banned
from the homebirth debate http://homebirthdebate.com with no
explanation.
I did not curse or threaten. I did give her a nickname toots like
toots the I know better than you horn. I did mention possibly
deleting some of myposts.
What is the custom for this in etherspace? Should she have sent me
a message that she deleted some comments, and why? Should I get an
explanation for being banned?
The page says it's a forum for debate with both pros and cons
welcome. She has banned at least one other, who left a note on my
blog to say so. She is vitriolic in her hatred of homebirthers and
midwives. I thought we were working through her issues, and she
might recover. It was entertaining to keep putting bits of my story
out there, hoping she could see the other side.
I know its her blog, and she can do whatever she wants, but I'd like
to know what was appropriate. I posted as Sue or Sue - an engineer
mom.
Does anyone want to go there and mention Sue got banned with no
reason? I'm not really looking to attack her by sending hordes of
angry women to her site, I'd just like someone to say goodby for
me. I got to know a few of the regulars, and they might miss me.
from the homebirth debate http://homebirthdebate.com with no
explanation.
I did not curse or threaten. I did give her a nickname toots like
toots the I know better than you horn. I did mention possibly
deleting some of myposts.
What is the custom for this in etherspace? Should she have sent me
a message that she deleted some comments, and why? Should I get an
explanation for being banned?
The page says it's a forum for debate with both pros and cons
welcome. She has banned at least one other, who left a note on my
blog to say so. She is vitriolic in her hatred of homebirthers and
midwives. I thought we were working through her issues, and she
might recover. It was entertaining to keep putting bits of my story
out there, hoping she could see the other side.
I know its her blog, and she can do whatever she wants, but I'd like
to know what was appropriate. I posted as Sue or Sue - an engineer
mom.
Does anyone want to go there and mention Sue got banned with no
reason? I'm not really looking to attack her by sending hordes of
angry women to her site, I'd just like someone to say goodby for
me. I got to know a few of the regulars, and they might miss me.
Friday, August 04, 2006
Someone else understands
(This is someone else's comment posted to the debacle, posted with her permission.)
From delightfulmomma:
...It's hard to find ideas that are wackier than Dr. Odent's...
Let me think of some:
Women should lie down when giving birth.
Women should have fingers placed in her vagina at regular intervals to "check" her performance.
Women should have needles placed into their spines and anaesthetic injected (that risks death and paralysis).
If labor stops or slows down to give a woman a rest, even if the baby is doing fine, we shall inject a synthetic drug (made from pig product) into the woman to "start her up again".
We shall make a biological physiological process as unatural as possible so that as many as 1:3 or 4 women need major abdominal surgery to relieve them of their offspring.
We shall sever the umbilical cord and its vital component of blood (up to 200mls) as soon as the baby is born.
We shall break the waters of the amniotic sack that protects the baby at all labors to speed labor up despite their still being no reliable scientific evidence that says that this practice does in fact speed things up!
Obstetrics:crazy crazy people doing crazy things every day!
Obstetrics: conning women, performing unecessary surgery and misleading the public every day!
Obstetrics: if you want to make money, not have to be particularily bright in medical terms and only have to perform a couple of easy peasy surgical techniques in your career, this is the medical path for you! Obstetrics: anyone can do it!Join now for your easy course on :
1. How to perform a caesarean.
2.How to sew up a caesarean.
This 2 day course will show you how to do this now with an even easier one layer technique. Medics...Don`t mess with complicated heart surgery or play with intricate opthalmology, take the easy option with far more money to make! Course sponsored by pitocin.
From delightfulmomma:
...It's hard to find ideas that are wackier than Dr. Odent's...
Let me think of some:
Women should lie down when giving birth.
Women should have fingers placed in her vagina at regular intervals to "check" her performance.
Women should have needles placed into their spines and anaesthetic injected (that risks death and paralysis).
If labor stops or slows down to give a woman a rest, even if the baby is doing fine, we shall inject a synthetic drug (made from pig product) into the woman to "start her up again".
We shall make a biological physiological process as unatural as possible so that as many as 1:3 or 4 women need major abdominal surgery to relieve them of their offspring.
We shall sever the umbilical cord and its vital component of blood (up to 200mls) as soon as the baby is born.
We shall break the waters of the amniotic sack that protects the baby at all labors to speed labor up despite their still being no reliable scientific evidence that says that this practice does in fact speed things up!
Obstetrics:crazy crazy people doing crazy things every day!
Obstetrics: conning women, performing unecessary surgery and misleading the public every day!
Obstetrics: if you want to make money, not have to be particularily bright in medical terms and only have to perform a couple of easy peasy surgical techniques in your career, this is the medical path for you! Obstetrics: anyone can do it!Join now for your easy course on :
1. How to perform a caesarean.
2.How to sew up a caesarean.
This 2 day course will show you how to do this now with an even easier one layer technique. Medics...Don`t mess with complicated heart surgery or play with intricate opthalmology, take the easy option with far more money to make! Course sponsored by pitocin.
Happy note
(a reply to the mommy group, someone wanted a happy story for the day.)
The weather was icky, so we didn't go to Dairy Dan's for the clown making balloon animals. Instead I convinced them it would be more fun to make a bunch of our own. Waiting in line for one, takes way longer than making a dozen puppies.
So I broke out the pump, and a handful of balloons. Blew a few up and wandered away. Well, she said they were out of ballons, so I went to help. Thinking I'd be blowing up more. Nope, they figured out how to tie them, and needed more empties. Neat, my finger went numb the day before from tying all of them.
They had a blast. Sophia made puppies, and tried to copy the seahorse from the clowns at the Civic Center Library (that was Tuesday). Veronica made a parachute. I made swords. So cute seeing the balloons tied all around her. Sophia liked it and made one too.
I mentioned how nice it was that Sophia liked it so much, she made one too. Happy balloon sounds then were sent to the basement, so I could let Nicky out of his highchair. No ballooons for babies, choking hazard.
They played for another happy hour in the basement with them, while Nicky caused as much mayhem as he could. He can now get loose from the high chair, open the kitchen gate, turn the TV, VCR and Sattelite on and off, and reset the computer. Fun ;)
I didn't get a chance to finish my book. The Wizard of London, Mercedes Lackey. I didn't pick up my crochet either. We're making an afgan of granny squares. I have a little notebook where they design squares, so I can make them later. They choose a pattern in the book, and copy to the notebook, picking from the colors we have. We've got quite a pile of squares in the corner, and keep laying them out, or throwing them like frisbees.
The weather was icky, so we didn't go to Dairy Dan's for the clown making balloon animals. Instead I convinced them it would be more fun to make a bunch of our own. Waiting in line for one, takes way longer than making a dozen puppies.
So I broke out the pump, and a handful of balloons. Blew a few up and wandered away. Well, she said they were out of ballons, so I went to help. Thinking I'd be blowing up more. Nope, they figured out how to tie them, and needed more empties. Neat, my finger went numb the day before from tying all of them.
They had a blast. Sophia made puppies, and tried to copy the seahorse from the clowns at the Civic Center Library (that was Tuesday). Veronica made a parachute. I made swords. So cute seeing the balloons tied all around her. Sophia liked it and made one too.
I mentioned how nice it was that Sophia liked it so much, she made one too. Happy balloon sounds then were sent to the basement, so I could let Nicky out of his highchair. No ballooons for babies, choking hazard.
They played for another happy hour in the basement with them, while Nicky caused as much mayhem as he could. He can now get loose from the high chair, open the kitchen gate, turn the TV, VCR and Sattelite on and off, and reset the computer. Fun ;)
I didn't get a chance to finish my book. The Wizard of London, Mercedes Lackey. I didn't pick up my crochet either. We're making an afgan of granny squares. I have a little notebook where they design squares, so I can make them later. They choose a pattern in the book, and copy to the notebook, picking from the colors we have. We've got quite a pile of squares in the corner, and keep laying them out, or throwing them like frisbees.
Homebirthers deserve good care at hospitals.
(another reply to the homebirth debacle.)
Dr Amy, still looking for a reply about backup OBs. Do you accpet homebirthers? Will you provide backup care?
It might have been nice to be able to keep my sOB, when I fled to a lay midwife in my eighth month of pregnancy. After taking the hospital tour, I was horrified by the attitudes and facilities.
They only had a level one neonatal intensive care unit, which means not even enough to stabilize. Immediate transport by helicopter to another facility, without mom or dad. Mom wouldn't be released for at least twenty four hours to follow, and dad couldn't fly with the baby.
They made a big deal that you could drink water during labor, if your doc approves.
They did not have a tub, and said the shower would do the same.
By choosing to birth at the midwife's office, in her tub. I was safer. Her office was 7 minutes from deciding to go, to getting a C section at a facility with a level 4 neonatal intensive care unit. They would prep the room, with a phone call from her, and be ready on arrival.
How does your hospital treat a call from a midwife having trouble? Or do they not even call your facility?
Homebirth is much safer with good relations at a hospital. For the 5% who choose to transfer, they should recieve immediate good care, not a stern lecture on the evils of homebirth.
I've read stories where the hospital is so hostile, they don't act on the midwife's concerns, and start over, with intake questions and tests, letting the baby die.
Dr Amy, still looking for a reply about backup OBs. Do you accpet homebirthers? Will you provide backup care?
It might have been nice to be able to keep my sOB, when I fled to a lay midwife in my eighth month of pregnancy. After taking the hospital tour, I was horrified by the attitudes and facilities.
They only had a level one neonatal intensive care unit, which means not even enough to stabilize. Immediate transport by helicopter to another facility, without mom or dad. Mom wouldn't be released for at least twenty four hours to follow, and dad couldn't fly with the baby.
They made a big deal that you could drink water during labor, if your doc approves.
They did not have a tub, and said the shower would do the same.
By choosing to birth at the midwife's office, in her tub. I was safer. Her office was 7 minutes from deciding to go, to getting a C section at a facility with a level 4 neonatal intensive care unit. They would prep the room, with a phone call from her, and be ready on arrival.
How does your hospital treat a call from a midwife having trouble? Or do they not even call your facility?
Homebirth is much safer with good relations at a hospital. For the 5% who choose to transfer, they should recieve immediate good care, not a stern lecture on the evils of homebirth.
I've read stories where the hospital is so hostile, they don't act on the midwife's concerns, and start over, with intake questions and tests, letting the baby die.
I was a believer
(posted as a reply to neonataldoc HIb)
I was a believer. I updated my shots before trying to concieve.
After a year of her getting very sick after every shot, and seeing two of her immunizations recalled, I woke up and started reading. One of her vaccines was recalled for overdosing newborn babies with mercury. That was the published reason. The other for bowel obstructions.
It was hard to watch my child suffer from the vaccinations. The doctors didn't report even one occurance to the VARS database. The doc made the call that it was unrelated, and didn't follow the rules. Vaccine incidents are 95% underreported.
The screaming, the rainbow poops, and the worry was only there for the 7-10 days after each shot.
How 'bout the way that SIDS peaks in two perfect bell curves centered around two and four months age. Same as immunization time.
The only polio seen in the US for more than a decade, is the vaccine strain, not the wild one. Most polio cases in the US recently were caused by the oral vaccine. The caregivers were catching it from the diapers.
And what about the nasty preservatives.
I will not vaccinate my son. It was hard enough watching my daughter suffer.
And before you get on your high horse, vaccines are contraindicated if siblings had bad reactions. It says so right on the manufacturers pamphlet. So even the medicos would agree not to vaccinate another.
I loved the line in the varicella vaccine pamphlet. "There is no evidence of sutained immunity in the absence of wild booosting." So if we vaccinate the kids, they may get chickepox as adults.
I was a believer. I updated my shots before trying to concieve.
After a year of her getting very sick after every shot, and seeing two of her immunizations recalled, I woke up and started reading. One of her vaccines was recalled for overdosing newborn babies with mercury. That was the published reason. The other for bowel obstructions.
It was hard to watch my child suffer from the vaccinations. The doctors didn't report even one occurance to the VARS database. The doc made the call that it was unrelated, and didn't follow the rules. Vaccine incidents are 95% underreported.
The screaming, the rainbow poops, and the worry was only there for the 7-10 days after each shot.
How 'bout the way that SIDS peaks in two perfect bell curves centered around two and four months age. Same as immunization time.
The only polio seen in the US for more than a decade, is the vaccine strain, not the wild one. Most polio cases in the US recently were caused by the oral vaccine. The caregivers were catching it from the diapers.
And what about the nasty preservatives.
I will not vaccinate my son. It was hard enough watching my daughter suffer.
And before you get on your high horse, vaccines are contraindicated if siblings had bad reactions. It says so right on the manufacturers pamphlet. So even the medicos would agree not to vaccinate another.
I loved the line in the varicella vaccine pamphlet. "There is no evidence of sutained immunity in the absence of wild booosting." So if we vaccinate the kids, they may get chickepox as adults.
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